Cessna L-19/O-1 Bird Dog flight behaviour

Everything concerning Cessna O-1/L-19 Bird Dog is discussed here.
User avatar
pj_3
Posts: 123
Joined: 13 Sep 2006, 22:22
Location: Lindsay, Ontario, Canada

Re: Cessna L-19/O-1 Bird Dog flight behaviour

Post by pj_3 » 17 May 2010, 19:31

It's ok, man.. I've always found that - writing the intended angry email/post, whatever - gets it off your chest! - but then I save it as draft - I don't send it. I come back to it next day and look at it again. THEN I might send it - or not. It allows time to make a better choice. It works - and you'll gain a bunch of respect - just as you have in the post I'm replying to. Life's too short! Don't go away.

Regards,
Paul J

Image
Water-cooled i7-2600K@4.8gig, ASUS P8P67 B3 DeLuxe; EVGA GTX580; 8gig Corsair Vengeance C8@1600; Win 7-64; TH2G w/3x19" Viewsonic VA926; Homebuilt airliner-style yoke and pedals; 6-pack throttle quadrant; TrackIR5 & EZCA; No blurries.[/font][/size]

User avatar
Tigerclaw
Posts: 55
Joined: 22 Jun 2010, 14:22
Location: Essex. England

Re: Cessna L-19/O-1 Bird Dog flight behaviour

Post by Tigerclaw » 24 Jun 2010, 04:42

Hi everybody,

I've read all this stuff, and I'm totally confused. I bought the Bird Dog, what was it, two days ago now? Yeah a couple of days. I mostly checked out the forums to see if there were any really decent paints for it. (I never really like to use the default paints, they aren't "personal" enough.)

Anyway, now I'm reading stuff about "Flight Dynamics" not being right, and it doesn't fly like it's supposed to. How is this bird supposed to fly then? I think it feels great. Okay I'm not a pilot, but I'm sick to death of flying planes that just sit there and do nothing once you've trimmed them. This baby moves around in the wind, it gives you the feeling of "floating" with side to side and up and down movements. Isn't it supposed to fly like that?

I can't stop flying this plane because it "feels" more real than any other plane I've bought for the flight sim. So can someone tell me please, as I bought this model a couple of days ago, is it updated already? Or am I to expect an update in the future that may well spoil what I feel right now? As I said, I'm totally confused. But I'm very happy with the way the plane flies now.

User avatar
Ron Attwood
Posts: 226
Joined: 22 May 2010, 02:41
Location: Chelmsförd, Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: Cessna L-19/O-1 Bird Dog flight behaviour

Post by Ron Attwood » 24 Jun 2010, 11:50

Hi TC, you're right in most respects but tell me, can you take off and land without too much 'excitement'? Taking off is like wrestling an octopus, it can be done, but it's not pretty! :lol:
Landing it very often spoils a nice day mooching around the mountains and valleys by dumping you unceremoniously on the deck. Like you, I'm not a pilot so I can't say whether it would/wouldn't do this, that or the other if you raised the wrong eyebrow but it's still my weapon of choice. I understand they (the devs) have real BD pilots on the books so I don't see them turning it into a sterile 'autopilot' type aircraft.



If they ever get round to releasing the patch that is. :roll:

Just a few more days!
Computer: Black box with a bunch of electrical looking stuff inside. Lots of fans and blue lights and it sits there humming away gently and lets me play games on it.

User avatar
Tigerclaw
Posts: 55
Joined: 22 Jun 2010, 14:22
Location: Essex. England

Re: Cessna L-19/O-1 Bird Dog flight behaviour

Post by Tigerclaw » 24 Jun 2010, 15:25

Hi Ron,

Firstly I must say that I prefer to fly Helicopters, the Dodo being my helicopter of choice. I don't like flying planes much at all. This plane, however, has changed my view though, I'm really enjoying it.

As it happens I find take offs okay if you do it right. I take off using NO flaps, (flaps I feel slow it down a bit too much), just open up the power to full, keep it straight with quick dabs on the rudder pedals and/or brakes, wait for the tail to lift, then pull back on the stick. Beautifully smooth take offs. As for landings, again, I only use 1 or 2 notches of flaps most of the time, keep the power on and keep the speed above 60mph. Flair, and idle the throttles, and pull back on the stick while applying the brakes once touched down. She stops pretty fast, and I rarely get a bounce now. If I rush things, then it all goes to s**t, but taking my time, which is easy in this baby, and all goes according to plan. Try some really short fields, and do loads of circuits, remember to watch that speed though, it bleeds off pretty fast. If your approach is is still around 80mph when you're getting close, put in another notch of flaps to slow it down some more. I've found that I land just above the 60mph mark maybe around 65mph?. Don't know if this is correct, but it works for me. I'm also finding that short approaches are working best for me, keeping the runway in sight through one of the many windows. Visibility is excellent in this plane. As I'm banking for base leg, or final, I use the window between the roof and side windows to "spot" the runway, and track it through the bank until it comes to the front screen. Sometimes in harder banks I use the roof window.

This is the ONLY plane I have bought that I feel really at home in. All the others feel like toys compared to this one, and they look too "plasticy" inside. Watch the wires on the lights, on the screen columns, as you waggle the wings, turn and bank. No other plane I've seen has detail anywhere near that.

User avatar
Ron Attwood
Posts: 226
Joined: 22 May 2010, 02:41
Location: Chelmsförd, Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: Cessna L-19/O-1 Bird Dog flight behaviour

Post by Ron Attwood » 24 Jun 2010, 15:44

If that's how she is with you then maybe they have updated the current download. Mine was as I described but I was given an early testing .air and .cfg files which turned it round. (can't remember where I got the files from now :wink: ) Anyway, I'm delighted you like it. :)
Tell me, does the flaps sound sync with the flaps animation on the first notch? On mine the sound carries on waaaay past when the flaps have stopped moving. That's on the list of fixes.
Computer: Black box with a bunch of electrical looking stuff inside. Lots of fans and blue lights and it sits there humming away gently and lets me play games on it.

User avatar
pj_3
Posts: 123
Joined: 13 Sep 2006, 22:22
Location: Lindsay, Ontario, Canada

Re: Cessna L-19/O-1 Bird Dog flight behaviour

Post by pj_3 » 24 Jun 2010, 17:34

The major fix is the ability to spin in both directions, Ron: the next biggee was the behavior induced by trimming full up and holding full up at the stall with zero flap. The original nose dropped initially - then slowly rose to about 80 degrees, with the aircraft appearing to slide/fly backwards, then falling/hammerheading to the left, down to vertical and then swing up to through 90 degrees . This doesn't happen when using the latest fdx.
Paul J

Image
Water-cooled i7-2600K@4.8gig, ASUS P8P67 B3 DeLuxe; EVGA GTX580; 8gig Corsair Vengeance C8@1600; Win 7-64; TH2G w/3x19" Viewsonic VA926; Homebuilt airliner-style yoke and pedals; 6-pack throttle quadrant; TrackIR5 & EZCA; No blurries.[/font][/size]

User avatar
Ron Attwood
Posts: 226
Joined: 22 May 2010, 02:41
Location: Chelmsförd, Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: Cessna L-19/O-1 Bird Dog flight behaviour

Post by Ron Attwood » 24 Jun 2010, 19:01

:lol: I would NEVER, in a month of Sundays, guessed that. I take off, I go where I'm going, I land. I don't go looking for trouble. :grin: But I'll take your word for it. As long as they fix the flaps sound. :wink:


Any day now!
Computer: Black box with a bunch of electrical looking stuff inside. Lots of fans and blue lights and it sits there humming away gently and lets me play games on it.

User avatar
Tigerclaw
Posts: 55
Joined: 22 Jun 2010, 14:22
Location: Essex. England

Re: Cessna L-19/O-1 Bird Dog flight behaviour

Post by Tigerclaw » 24 Jun 2010, 23:34

@ Ron, Hi again,

"Tell me, does the flaps sound sync with the flaps animation on the first notch?"

Well I just tested it, and I can say without a shadow of a doubt, my sound is synchronised with the animation perfectly on ALL notches of the flaps. The only "stray" sound I have is the funny pump whirring sound after shutting down the engine. That has already been discussed elsewhere. Strange that you have a sound issue with sync. I'm using Win XP Pro 32 bit, if that helps? And I use the on board sound for all aircraft sounds, and a sound blaster Audigy 2 ZS for the voice. FSX Gold with Acceleration. Maybe it's something in the OS or sound devices?

The only handling problems I have encountered so far, is trying to land with 25 to 35 knot cross winds :roll: I don't think this plane is designed to fly under those conditions, so I'm not worried about messing up a few landings under those weather conditions. Taking off is a bit of a drama too, once that wind gets under a wing you're a gonna :lol:

@ pj_3, Hi,

Just like Ron, I too just take off, and land. But in between I like to go looking at the amazing scenery, and try to find all the hidden treasures of ORBX and OZX. I don't mind the odd side slip here and there, but spins? I'd rather not thank you very much :grin:

User avatar
Ron Attwood
Posts: 226
Joined: 22 May 2010, 02:41
Location: Chelmsförd, Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: Cessna L-19/O-1 Bird Dog flight behaviour

Post by Ron Attwood » 25 Jun 2010, 00:00

When I say sync I mean:
Press lever for first notch of flaps;
flaps sound and animation start together;
flaps stop at first notch; sound continues for another 4-5 seconds.

W7 64 bit, onboard sound whatever it is. It's not the sound system, I've dug out the swflaps.wav file and played it, it lasts 7 seconds! I tried editing it without success. :(
This beginning to look even more like they've put out an updated version. :?

Oh, and the looking at gorgeous PNW scenery is a given. :grin:
Computer: Black box with a bunch of electrical looking stuff inside. Lots of fans and blue lights and it sits there humming away gently and lets me play games on it.

Blackace16
Posts: 18
Joined: 02 Apr 2009, 05:18
Location: Ripley, OH - The Villages, FL USA

Re: Cessna L-19/O-1 Bird Dog flight behaviour

Post by Blackace16 » 25 Jun 2010, 00:40

For Ron and Tigerclaw.

I have checked with developers about FDX update. It has yet to be published in the software package -- so those folks buying the program at this time are getting the bird with the unrealistic flight envelope. I am told that they are 99% ready to go and they hope to publish the update changes within the next 10-14 days. I think their basic problem has been the inability to devote the time they would like due to the demands of their main occupations (not flight sim devleopment). I think once you get your update you will be pleasantly surprised (see my comments of 6 June (flight dynamics update) with how the bird handles. Much closer to reality and fun to fly (but watch out on the ground!!).

User avatar
Ron Attwood
Posts: 226
Joined: 22 May 2010, 02:41
Location: Chelmsförd, Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: Cessna L-19/O-1 Bird Dog flight behaviour

Post by Ron Attwood » 25 Jun 2010, 00:50

Now why the hell couldn't one of the developers come on the forum and say that? :evil: Nobody is too busy to take two minutes to make a post! Instead we're treated as if we don't matter. Hey, maybe we don't.
You wouldn't believe how hard I'm hitting these keys! :x
Computer: Black box with a bunch of electrical looking stuff inside. Lots of fans and blue lights and it sits there humming away gently and lets me play games on it.

User avatar
Tigerclaw
Posts: 55
Joined: 22 Jun 2010, 14:22
Location: Essex. England

Re: Cessna L-19/O-1 Bird Dog flight behaviour

Post by Tigerclaw » 25 Jun 2010, 02:25

Okay, just looked at, and played my swflaps.wav file, it lasts 6 seconds on my PC, with about 1 second of silence at the end. But in game, it starts when I hit the flap lever, and stops exactly when the flap stops. This is the same for all notches down, AND all notches up. I tested it 4 times at least :) This is on the 1A version, (with the wheels), the one without the VOR, ADF gauges. The Ski version gives the same result. The 1F version (with wheels and VOR, ADF gauges) gives the same result again, and the last one, float version, (I went all the way to Alaska to test this one :lol: ), gives the same results again. If there is any delay, or extended sound, it's totally unnoticeable to my naked eye.

The test were carried out by restarting FSX before each test, loading the plane at EGMC for the wheeled and Ski versions, and at Tenakee springs Alaska for the float version. I sat in the VC, looked out the left window, and hit my flaps lever on my Saitek X52 Pro. Then looking out the right window, doing the same with the lever. I even tried bringing up another window so I could see the flaps while clicking on the VC levers. I also tested spot view, all with same results on all versions. I did test F7 and F6, but only on one plane, the float version. It was the same so didn't see the point in testing those keys on the other planes. I think I did a pretty thorough test, and I'm happy they all work as they should.

I will add that I rarely have the same sort of problems as other people do. I don't know why, maybe luck? Or maybe because my PC is dedicated to FSX and nothing else that is not related to the flight sim? I have no anti virus programs interfering with installs, no UAC like Vista and W7, no permission problems which others seem to have. Maybe these addons just need to be able to do what they do without the OS questioning everything they do?

The size of the file is 1,110,090 bytes (1,114,412 on the disc) modified on 09 December 2009, 13:46:08

Don't know what else to tell you.

User avatar
Ron Attwood
Posts: 226
Joined: 22 May 2010, 02:41
Location: Chelmsförd, Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: Cessna L-19/O-1 Bird Dog flight behaviour

Post by Ron Attwood » 25 Jun 2010, 02:41

Very thorough test. File size etc the same except 1,114,112 on the disc. (typo?) and date modified same but 12:46.08.
It's extremely good of you to go to this trouble but these sort of things should be answered by Sibwings SUPPORT. :lol:
Computer: Black box with a bunch of electrical looking stuff inside. Lots of fans and blue lights and it sits there humming away gently and lets me play games on it.

User avatar
Tigerclaw
Posts: 55
Joined: 22 Jun 2010, 14:22
Location: Essex. England

Re: Cessna L-19/O-1 Bird Dog flight behaviour

Post by Tigerclaw » 25 Jun 2010, 03:03

Yeah, my bad, it was a typo, it IS 1,114,112 bytes.

It's not really trouble, I was interested to know if there were any differences in the file dates really. And to be honest, if no one says, hey this is my system and all works fine here, no one can eliminate that criteria in the problem solving process. Now if I HAD a problem, that would be a different story, because if stuff don't work on here, then it's faulty. That is to say, it's a bare bones system, no frills, totally stock, with hardware of an era when FSX came out (more or less). No developer should over write other developers work, and that's about all that could go wrong on my PC. Don't get me wrong, it's totally rubbish when it comes to frame rates and stuff, but it WORKS if you know what I mean :)


Names Tony by the way :)

User avatar
Ron Attwood
Posts: 226
Joined: 22 May 2010, 02:41
Location: Chelmsförd, Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: Cessna L-19/O-1 Bird Dog flight behaviour

Post by Ron Attwood » 25 Jun 2010, 04:07

Hi Tony, My guess is an entry in the .air files is borked but as I can't read them I'll never know. :roll: I can usually track down these anomalies and sort them out but this one has beaten me.
tbh, the flaps thing only niggles on an approach. :grin:

As for my PC it sounds as if we're singing from the same hymn sheet. I have FSX Acceleration, a lot of the Orbx stuff and a few carefully selected add-on a/c. FSX runs as sweet as a nut with none of the million and one 'tweaks' and it looks great! Believe me, I'm very picky about visuals.
Besides that, I have a few racing sims, iRacing, nKPro, rFactor, CoD5, Photoshop and bugger all else!
I run a tight ship and folders and files have to be in their allotted places every morning before work! :grin:

Hey ho, it'll all come out in the wash. As soon as the devs have been released from Lubyanka! What could they have done to get so much time? :lol:
Computer: Black box with a bunch of electrical looking stuff inside. Lots of fans and blue lights and it sits there humming away gently and lets me play games on it.

User avatar
Tigerclaw
Posts: 55
Joined: 22 Jun 2010, 14:22
Location: Essex. England

Re: Cessna L-19/O-1 Bird Dog flight behaviour

Post by Tigerclaw » 27 Jun 2010, 13:48

My friend saw this thread the other day, and he tested HIS bird dog and had the same results I did, all seemed synced up no problem. I mention this because he has a different set up to me. He runs W7 64bit. One thing he did mention that I didn't even think about, was DRIVERS. They DO play a very big part in what works and what doesn't. I can't remember if you mentioned drivers earlier in the thread, but it may be worth checking out what version drivers you are running for both graphics and sound? If you recently updated a driver, maybe go back to the previous one and see if that is the problem? Just a thought :)

Jigsaw
Posts: 13
Joined: 12 Aug 2009, 15:34

Re: Cessna L-19/O-1 Bird Dog flight behaviour

Post by Jigsaw » 27 Jun 2010, 18:29

Ron Attwood wrote:Now why the hell couldn't one of the developers come on the forum and say that? :evil: Nobody is too busy to take two minutes to make a post! Instead we're treated as if we don't matter. Hey, maybe we don't.
You wouldn't believe how hard I'm hitting these keys! :x
Yeah... as far as the forum is concerned SIbwings certainly wins the price of having the worst customer communication of any FSX developer I ever dealt with.

But I also have to say this: when I lost my my registration information due to a hard drive failure they answered my email within two hours, which is outstanding. So it's not all bad. It still would be nice to be kept in the loop a little more, because all that waiting while being left in the dark is very frustrating.

User avatar
Ron Attwood
Posts: 226
Joined: 22 May 2010, 02:41
Location: Chelmsförd, Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: Cessna L-19/O-1 Bird Dog flight behaviour

Post by Ron Attwood » 27 Jun 2010, 19:50

Re-installed the BirdDog and flaps sound issue has gone away. :roll:
Computer: Black box with a bunch of electrical looking stuff inside. Lots of fans and blue lights and it sits there humming away gently and lets me play games on it.

User avatar
Tigerclaw
Posts: 55
Joined: 22 Jun 2010, 14:22
Location: Essex. England

Re: Cessna L-19/O-1 Bird Dog flight behaviour

Post by Tigerclaw » 28 Jun 2010, 18:18

Ron Attwood wrote:Re-installed the BirdDog and flaps sound issue has gone away. :roll:
Well that's good news Ron, glad to hear you got that little mystery sorted :)

@ Jigsaw,

The thing I find about forums, is they take an enormous amount of time reading them to catch up with what's going on. Personally, I'd prefer ANY developer to be working hard on fixing the problems, rather than trawling the forums and answering peoples queries on when it's going to be fixed. Just a personal opinion, not a criticism in any way. I don't know anything about this company, this the first product I've bought from them, but I get the notion that they aren't english, and the english language is a second language to them. Maybe things work different where they are from? I'm prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt, and wait a bit longer :)

Having said that, I have no major problems with my Bird Dog, and she's perfect to fly as she is right now. There are a few bugs here and there, mainly on the navigation side of things, but flight dynamics all seem okay me.

User avatar
Ron Attwood
Posts: 226
Joined: 22 May 2010, 02:41
Location: Chelmsförd, Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: Cessna L-19/O-1 Bird Dog flight behaviour

Post by Ron Attwood » 28 Jun 2010, 22:16

Tigerclaw wrote:
Ron Attwood wrote:Re-installed the BirdDog and flaps sound issue has gone away. :roll:
Well that's good news Ron, glad to hear you got that little mystery sorted :)

@ Jigsaw,

The thing I find about forums, is they take an enormous amount of time reading them to catch up with what's going on. Personally, I'd prefer ANY developer to be working hard on fixing the problems, rather than trawling the forums and answering peoples queries on when it's going to be fixed. Just a personal opinion, not a criticism in any way. I don't know anything about this company, this the first product I've bought from them, but I get the notion that they aren't english, and the english language is a second language to them. Maybe things work different where they are from? I'm prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt, and wait a bit longer :)

Having said that, I have no major problems with my Bird Dog, and she's perfect to fly as she is right now. There are a few bugs here and there, mainly on the navigation side of things, but flight dynamics all seem okay me.
As a matter of interest I tried spinning the plane...disaster! It just got caught in what I can only describe as a 'spin loop' no amount of input made the slightest bit of difference and it took an age before hitting the deck!

I also tried a roll, that was OK and a loop not so OK, but I'll take the blame for that. :grin: On the whole though I agree with you. It flies perfectly satisfactorily if you're not into heroics. :grin:

As for devs checking their forum once in a while and making some kind of response, I'd harding call that 'trawling'. What I do is trawling, flicking backwards and forwards from one site to another like a sad, demented old git! :roll:
Computer: Black box with a bunch of electrical looking stuff inside. Lots of fans and blue lights and it sits there humming away gently and lets me play games on it.

Post Reply