Cessna L-19/O-1 Bird Dog flight behaviour

Everything concerning Cessna O-1/L-19 Bird Dog is discussed here.
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mos
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Cessna L-19/O-1 Bird Dog flight behaviour

Post by mos » 08 May 2010, 03:44

( :arrow: ((((Private update for "SibWings_Cessna_BirdDog_F" (texture.USAF) only). (((Stopped the updates (and removed them) :smt006 ) new are on the block)))
Happy flying.
Mos (added 16-19 may 2010)
Last edited by mos on 28 Jul 2010, 16:36, edited 19 times in total.

metzgergva
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Re: Cessna L-19/O-1 Bird Dog flight behaviour

Post by metzgergva » 10 May 2010, 13:28

We are in the final process to make a new update. Currently an all new flight dynamic is under development and should be finalized soon. Don't ask me for a date as this is not only under my controls, but I thought I just let you know that a new flight model is in the making to address all points raised in this forum.
Happy flying!
Alexander

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Dieter
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Re: Cessna L-19/O-1 Bird Dog flight behaviour

Post by Dieter » 10 May 2010, 15:05

This is one of the most pleasant news I have read for a long time.

Greetings
Dieter

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mos
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Re: Cessna L-19/O-1 Bird Dog flight behaviour

Post by mos » 11 May 2010, 06:52

MISSING UPDATES SORRY :?
Last edited by mos on 19 May 2010, 04:37, edited 36 times in total.

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pj_3
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Re: Cessna L-19/O-1 Bird Dog flight behaviour

Post by pj_3 » 11 May 2010, 20:30

Thanks, Mos; that's a lot of work: I will try it tonight!
Paul J

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Re: Cessna L-19/O-1 Bird Dog flight behaviour

Post by pj_3 » 12 May 2010, 03:25

HI Mos; No, my friend. This bears no semblance to the performance settings of the F model.

1). Run-up gives 2900 rpm and 33". The brakes won't hold that. Correct setting is about 2050 at 24".
2). Elevator trim is far too harsh.
3). Insufficient torque/"p" and prop effects on take-off.
3). On take-off/climb-out the rpm went to 3400 rpm and 28".
4). S & L at max power was 160+ mph, at 3400 rpm and 27".
5). S & L with 60 deg flap with 2850 rpm and 20" gave a speed of 80 mph. The r/w aircraft can barely hold S & L at 60 with this flap.
6). The spin is still an issue.

I don't think this engine will last too long at those settings, Mos!, but thanks for sharing this configuration.
The update will not be long, now.
We don't get anywhere without exploring, right? :wink:
Paul J

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Water-cooled i7-2600K@4.8gig, ASUS P8P67 B3 DeLuxe; EVGA GTX580; 8gig Corsair Vengeance C8@1600; Win 7-64; TH2G w/3x19" Viewsonic VA926; Homebuilt airliner-style yoke and pedals; 6-pack throttle quadrant; TrackIR5 & EZCA; No blurries.[/font][/size]

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mos
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Re: Cessna L-19/O-1 Bird Dog flight behaviour

Post by mos » 12 May 2010, 06:36

MISSING UPDATES SORRY :?
Last edited by mos on 19 May 2010, 05:13, edited 14 times in total.

gfat
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Re: Cessna L-19/O-1 Bird Dog flight behaviour

Post by gfat » 12 May 2010, 21:07

Yeah I tend to agree the flight dynamics are pretty solid; but with room for improvement. The flaps produce too much drag and too little lift when compared with the real airplane.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/garrettgra ... 581793906/
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mos
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Re: Cessna L-19/O-1 Bird Dog flight behaviour

Post by mos » 12 May 2010, 23:32

MISSING UPDATES SORRY :?
Last edited by mos on 19 May 2010, 05:13, edited 7 times in total.

gfat
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Re: Cessna L-19/O-1 Bird Dog flight behaviour

Post by gfat » 13 May 2010, 01:04

oh yes! I did not mean that as a criticism! :) I do like your flight dynamics and I think it's great that someone is trying to improve this plane. The flap drag: lift ratio has been off ever since the plane was originally released. Cessna's have the barn door fowler flaps, which add quite a bit of area to the wing for a light plane. What I notice in the sim is that the L-19 flaps produce A LOT of drag and hardly any lift. The L-19 has a noticeable amount of lift until about 30 degrees, which is the maximum amount of flaps that are supposed to be used for a short field takeoff. Anything above 30 degrees is mainly drag. In the sim, the plane will hardly fly level with 60 degrees deployed. In real life, the airplane is actually quite happy in level flight with the flaps all the way down. It may be going slow and climbing much slower than usual, but it still handles quite well in that particular configuration. If you have any more questions feel free to ask :D.

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mos
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Re: Cessna L-19/O-1 Bird Dog flight behaviour

Post by mos » 13 May 2010, 02:19

MISSING UPDATES SORRY :?
Last edited by mos on 19 May 2010, 05:14, edited 8 times in total.

gfat
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Re: Cessna L-19/O-1 Bird Dog flight behaviour

Post by gfat » 13 May 2010, 03:49

mos wrote:
gfat wrote:oh yes! I did not mean that as a criticism! :) I do like your flight dynamics and I think it's great that someone is trying to improve this plane. The flap drag: lift ratio has been off ever since the plane was originally released. Cessna's have the barn door fowler flaps, which add quite a bit of area to the wing for a light plane. What I notice in the sim is that the L-19 flaps produce A LOT of drag and hardly any lift. The L-19 has a noticeable amount of lift until about 30 degrees, which is the maximum amount of flaps that are supposed to be used for a short field takeoff. Anything above 30 degrees is mainly drag. In the sim, the plane will hardly fly level with 60 degrees deployed. In real life, the airplane is actually quite happy in level flight with the flaps all the way down. It may be going slow and climbing much slower than usual, but it still handles quite well in that particular configuration. If you have any more questions feel free to ask :D.
Hi "gfat" I didn't took it as a "criticism", it was all meant the right way, and thank you for reply.
I think I now what the plane dos until 30 degrees, and I have tried to make the L-19 so that it still is maneuverable with "60 degrees deployed" (what was impossible before (have reed something, somewhere about that)), what I try to figure out right now is about the lift, and what plane around, there is, to compare with, that would save a lot of work.
what do you have to say about ruder/yaw/side slip effect (at first I thought it was a little too much, but then again if you have to land on one wheel it have to be that much) and if people dont like it, they can always set the value/FSX-slider lover until ........).

Mos :wink:



I can actually say that the side slipping in the L-19 is what one would compare to most other cessnas. It slips about the same as a Cessna Skywagon. I think Sibwings may have overmodeled the slip effect in the air. On the runway, the L-19 has a slightly ineffective rudder (a "deep" rudder is not as effective as a "tall" rudder). However, the sim needs to have a more effective rudder on takeoff. As for the flaps, I would compare it most closely with the lift produced by the Carenado Cessna 185. However, the 185 doesn't have quite as much drag, as the flaps don't go down nearly as far.

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mos
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Re: Cessna L-19/O-1 Bird Dog flight behaviour

Post by mos » 13 May 2010, 08:12

MISSING UPDATES SORRY :?
Last edited by mos on 19 May 2010, 05:14, edited 7 times in total.

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mos
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Re: Cessna L-19/O-1 Bird Dog flight behaviour

Post by mos » 16 May 2010, 06:06

MISSING UPDATES SORRY :?


Mos :wink: (added 16-17 may 2010) at the top of this site))
Last edited by mos on 19 May 2010, 05:25, edited 5 times in total.

metzgergva
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Re: Cessna L-19/O-1 Bird Dog flight behaviour

Post by metzgergva » 16 May 2010, 20:43

@ mos:
Just want to let you know that from a copyright perspective you are on dangerous ground. Why? Because you alter files owned by SibWings and publish the changes here. I do not say you infringe copyright laws because you do not offer the file as download. Just that you are aware of it.

For information to other readers:
A new flight dynamic is under development and will be released with the update. We are not there yet as I have basically started from scratch and had to learn about the Bird Dog first. But I think I'm getting close. The normal flight envelope is already very close to what my target is. A few things still need to fine-tuned and that might take some more days or weeks depending on the feedback from pilots who have experience with that plane.
Happy flying!
Alexander

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mos
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Re: Cessna L-19/O-1 Bird Dog flight behaviour

Post by mos » 17 May 2010, 05:43

metzgergva wrote:@ mos:
Just want to let you know that from a copyright perspective you are on dangerous ground. Why? Because you alter files owned by SibWings and publish the changes here. I do not say you infringe copyright laws because you do not offer the file as download. Just that you are aware of it.

For information to other readers:
A new flight dynamic is under development and will be released with the update. We are not there yet as I have basically started from scratch and had to learn about the Bird Dog first. But I think I'm getting close. The normal flight envelope is already very close to what my target is. A few things still need to fine-tuned and that might take some more days or weeks depending on the feedback from pilots who have experience with that plane.
TO metzgergva! you are so totally wrong:
OK just to inform you, this is my own hard worked files, and not one single of your incorrect files you have used from the "SAAB" / "Bird-Dog", have I used, and why is that, because they are totally wrong and useless, (in my private "config", everything is changed, but what I have uploaded here, is just, made so that all the complainers you have could come out flying, what was almost impossible before). I have just done a big reasserts, and done what you should have done at the first place.
What I did was to trow away your "aircraft.cfg" and your "birddog_F.air" file. and made my own. CFG. And when it comes to ".air" file from the "Maule", if you have tried "MY" aircraft.cfg, with your useless ".air" file you will find that you cant use them together (IF YOU WANT RIGHT FLIGHTDYNAMIC) so, also here your are incorrect.
BUT TO BLAME ME THAT I'M DOING SOMETHING CLOSE TO CRIMINAL, THATS A RUSSIAN ACCUSATION. And it's a little funny that you waited with your "complains" to I was almost done and finished with "MY" "aircraft.cfg" ?????
Your Bird-Dog is nice, but fly like S..., an so do your "SAAB". ((I send you a mail and asked if you could use my help, maybe as beta tester) when I bought this) but no feedback)))
"Support"
"Issues and wishes" 25 Dec 2009 (remember?)
"Let's make Bird Dog better together! " 25 Dec 2009 (remember?)
=was that, all Russian hot air in a balloon ?
(I just did what you should have done at the first place.?) :evil: :smt006
:arrow: MOS

To other readers:
PS! (((Private update for "SibWings_Cessna_BirdDog_F" (texture.USAF) only). (((Stopped the updates (and removed them)to other places)) "metzgergva" don't like what I was doing )) here ) sorry))
Happy flying.
MOS :wink:
Last edited by mos on 19 May 2010, 05:38, edited 8 times in total.

metzgergva
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Re: Cessna L-19/O-1 Bird Dog flight behaviour

Post by metzgergva » 17 May 2010, 14:17

What a reaction! Wow! You obviously did not read my post as it was meant. :roll:
Just for information: you are bitching on someone which is neither part of Sibwings nor has been involved in the development until 3 weeks ago. :o

You posted alterations of files that were developed by Sibwings and not by me. It is your right to do whatever you want for yourself, but you were borderline by posting them here or anywhere else without a prove that these were your own developments and not modifications as I could see from looking at them. Sibwings tolerated your postings, I just added a general comment on your process from my personal perspective, not speaking for Sibwings.

My post was meant to inform the community here that I work on a new flight dynamic which will be published as part of the update. That's all!
Happy flying!
Alexander

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mos
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Re: Cessna L-19/O-1 Bird Dog flight behaviour

Post by mos » 17 May 2010, 16:29

metzgergva wrote:What a reaction! Wow! You obviously did not read my post as it was meant. :roll:
Just for information: you are bitching on someone which is neither part of Sibwings nor has been involved in the development until 3 weeks ago. :o

You posted alterations of files that were developed by Sibwings and not by me. It is your right to do whatever you want for yourself, but you were borderline by posting them here or anywhere else without a prove that these were your own developments and not modifications as I could see from looking at them. Sibwings tolerated your postings, I just added a general comment on your process from my personal perspective, not speaking for Sibwings.

My post was meant to inform the community here that I work on a new flight dynamic which will be published as part of the update. That's all!
I was reading your "post" exactly as it was meant, I think.
and I was altering no files but text and letters done by me. (refer "microsoft")

and I did mentioned "(I'm working on a new/old, AIR-fil, and modded CFG-fil)" remember ?

and I did mentioned "(I have only been working on flight/ground behaviour/Flaps/Lift/drag. an this is only meant, as a replacement until the Regular update is coming)" remember ?

and I did mentioned "(OK here we go, this is my private update for (( ("SibWings_Cessna_BirdDog_F" (texture.USAF) only))), and please be aware that this update have nothing to do with
the regular update to come,......") Remember ?

and if you take a closer look at the very last updates, done by me, you will find absolutely no "Sibwings" files or text/letters, but text done by me, and only.(refer "microsoft"(why, because default is useless)).

and what have you expected, calling me something close to criminal.
you got the "reaction" you asked for, no more no less.

And now I cant wait to see the "new" aircraft.cfg you will come up with.

"Support"
"Issues and wishes" 25 Dec 2009 (remember?)
"Let's make Bird Dog better together! " 25 Dec 2009 (remember?)

why do you think Sibwings tolerated my "postings" ?

Go Flying
MOS
Last edited by mos on 19 May 2010, 06:34, edited 3 times in total.

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pj_3
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Re: Cessna L-19/O-1 Bird Dog flight behaviour

Post by pj_3 » 17 May 2010, 17:20

"why do you think Sibwings tolerated my "postings" ?
.. probably because Andrey has a life outside of Sibwings, and his personality is such that he tolerates such arrogant, insulting, juvenile posts as your previous ones, but now that you've said publicly:
"incorrect files you have used from the "SAAB", and "trow away your "aircraft.cfg" and your "birddog_F.air" file (they are useless)" and "but fly like S..., an so do your "SAAB", and "all Russian hot air in a balloon"
- he might not be so charitable.

Firstly - in reading Metzgergva's post - you obviously have some misinterpretation of the nuances of the English language - he didn't infer that you were a criminal at all. He merely wanted to make you aware that you were pushing the envelope with SibWings hospitality - and you were. Your posts would have been welcome on Avsim, or SimFlight or other forums: but certainly not on the owners doorstep without his permission.
Secondly: Your response to his rather innocuous remark didn't warrant forty-something lines of blatant impetuous insults and hostility toward Alexander OR SibWings. This was the ranting of a sixteen-year-old spoiled brat, not that of a mature responsible adult. Grow up.

Regards,
Paul J

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Re: Cessna L-19/O-1 Bird Dog flight behaviour

Post by mos » 17 May 2010, 18:37

Glad you made that clear, Paul .
But that's not the way I see it, by the way, I made an announcement, in the topic I started, what I would do in a few, days, before I added anything, and got some private mail's that people was looking forward to "my" work, (among other "beta-tester"-Remember?) and asked if I wanted to share what I was up to, and that's exactly what I have done, and if "someone wasn't happy with that, they could have told me (I asked more than "on" what people have to say ), and the very first thing I did was to remove what I have done, (and explained why) when I felt the complaints.
And to me it don't look like uploading to "Avsim, or SimFlight or other forums" would be appreciated, and "such arrogant, insulting, juvenile posts". you are right.
I'm done with this, but feel free to add what ever.

MOS :wink:

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