A few oddities....

All problems and technical questions concerning our SAAB 91 Safir X are discussed here.
lonewulf47
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A few oddities....

Post by lonewulf47 » 17 Nov 2008, 02:20

Hi all

I'm new to this forum however not really new to the simmer scene :grin: After a few initial flights with all four models I found a few things that might be confirmed by others and if necessary corrected with an upcoming patch.

I conducted all tests in the same environment at the same weight of 1000 kgs and with the same powersettings.

First of all the 4 A/C show a somewhat different initial setup. I did all setups after loading a default Cessna 172 with standard default switchings. I only mentioned the settings that seem wrong or unlogical to me.

The findings:

91B SAF46:
- gyros do not correspond to the MAG compass -> L 310°, R 314°, MAG 330°
- strange FREQ changeover button on COM equipment (valid for all KING COM)
- inconsistent acting on left and right mouse button for SGN lights and LDG lights

- after 1 roll or looping gyros start spinning and are not stoppable by any means

91C SE-KVZ:
- gyro does not correspond to the MAG compass -> 305°, MAG 330°
- DC OFF, thus no power on basic engine instruments and fuel indication
- BCN OFF

- after 1 roll or looping gyro starts spinning and is not stoppable by any means
- strange behaviour of RPM. Initially on T/O only reaches approx. 2300 RPM, inflight after some dive it increases to 2550 RPM without touching RPM lever. According to the sound pitch (which is a power indication on FSX still....) max. power is reached at 1900 RPM !!
- no reaction on CARB HEAT ON, gauge just reads ambient temperature

91D HB-DBL:
- alternator switch OFF, (however ALTN field ON) no PWR on basic engine instruments and fuel indication

no other anomalies found

91D SF3:
- CARB HEAT ON
- BCN OFF
- FLUX valve OFF
- Gyro sync OFF
- Attitude Indicator is reversed!

- same behaviour on RPM found as on 91C SE-KVZ
- no reaction on CARB HEAT ON, gauge just reads ambient temperature

Climb and cruise performance:
- Initial climb at full throttle, speed 150 km/h/80 KTS IAS
- cruise at 1500 m/5000 ft at 60 cm/24 in. MP, RPM 2300 for B and C models, 2400 RPM for D models.

91B:
climb -> 150 km/h IAS, 11 m/s
cruise -> 255 km/h IAS

91C:
climb -> 150 km/h IAS, 7 m/s
cruise -> 198 km/h IAS

91D HB-DBL:
climb -> 80 KIAS, 1600 FPM (8 m/s)
cruise -> 119 KIAS (220 km/h IAS)

91D SF3:
climb -> 150 km/h IAS, 7 m/s
cruise -> 198 km/h IAS

It seems to me that these data are also a bit inconsistent. B + C model have the same engine but completely different performance. Both D models have the same engine and slighty different performance too. This problem with the RPM (wrong mapping..?) results in both the 91C and the 91D SF3 in lower performance at identical parameters.

Maybe someone else can confirm those results?

Oskar

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Voyager30
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Re: A few oddities....

Post by Voyager30 » 17 Nov 2008, 13:34

Hi Oskar
after 1 roll or looping gyros start spinning and are not stoppable by any means
If you read the manual will you see that the AI and gyro compas need to be caged before doing any aerobatics.
There is built in a fault mechanism into this instrumens that randomizes failure if the are not cage during aerobatics - instruments can be made operational again by caging/uncaging them.
- gyros do not correspond to the MAG compass -> L 310°, R 314°, MAG 330
There is also a built in gyro drift into the gyro compass, and further I think also that there might bee a small difference in what you see on the gyro compass vs the magnetic compass due to the angle that you are looking at the magnetic compass with.
The gyro drift is approx 1 deg / 4-5 min.
Please test "key B" to align compasses - and if you look at the checklist , there is a reason why "compass - check" is with twice before takeoff :grin:
- DC OFF, thus no power on basic engine instruments and fuel indication
SE-KVZ has a separate switch labled "Instruments" that need to be in ON position to.

I agree to that the B-model still seems a bit over powered.

Regards

Gerth
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lonewulf47
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Re: A few oddities....

Post by lonewulf47 » 17 Nov 2008, 15:46

Thank you Gerth for your immediate answer. However I have to insist on a few things nevertheless. I caged of course the attitude indicator as I'm quite familiar with those things :grin: . Caging a DG however would be completely new to me. I never came across that in my whole flying career .... So I will keep them spinning after my first roll..... Never saw that.....

Concerning the gyros I'm not talking about the gyro drift of which I'm quite familiar too. (even checklist work...) I've never seen any MSFS A/C that didn't show the same HDG on all available indications upon initial load, simply because this is default setting. Ok I agree, some realism built in...but then: why not on all A/C?

About the missing DC power on SE-KVZ: again I'm quite aware of the different electrical setups among the four models. Nevertheless I would prefer a more or less basic setup upon initial load for all four models with all instruments working - or all instruments off. Whatever you prefer. But definitely not one having it on, the other having it off.

Oskar

lonewulf47
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Re: A few oddities....

Post by lonewulf47 » 23 Nov 2008, 15:24

I was hoping that the update would deal with a few of the shortcomings but apart from the wrongly indicating attitude indicator nothing was corrected on the "flying" side. Admittently the graphical depiction of the model - inside and out - is superb, maybe someone can guide me towards opening a few openings as I saw it on several pictures. The manual is not really helpful in that respect.

So - the main shortcomings are still here, which are:

- spinning gyros (no, don't tell me about caging... :grin:, not stoppable, not even when hitting the "D" key )
- poor power mapping on the 91 C and the 91D SF3, constant speed props maybe have a wrong (=too high) minimum pitch setting, but apart from that the maximum power is reached at 1900 RPM..... :roll:
- missing carb heat reaction on two A/C along with CARB HEAT ON on the 91D SF3 model upon startup
and a few others as on my initial post.

Unfortunately I can't compare with the FS9 models. I have observed it many times that adaptions to FSX showed inconsisctencies on the inital load. The poor engine power mapping is a clear performance file issue.

Oskar

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Andrey
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Re: A few oddities....

Post by Andrey » 23 Nov 2008, 17:38

Hello Oskar,

Thank you for testing and posting :)

First, DG should be locked before aerobaic - in other case it cold be "demaged". As for other points - we'll check them, probably will fix in future.

Andrey
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lonewulf47
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Re: A few oddities....

Post by lonewulf47 » 23 Nov 2008, 20:45

Thank you Andrey

Funny that you also mention the DG to be locked. I haven't found anything to lock it 8) !! I can cage the Attitude Indicator, but this doesn't mean anything for the DG's. And btw this 'spinning' only applies to the 'old style' drum DG, not for the modern style compass card DG like in the HB-DBL. So - have I missed something about locking DG's :o ?? Also in real life aerobatic flying I have come across to locking AI's but not DG's.

Oskar

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Alex
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Re: A few oddities....

Post by Alex » 23 Nov 2008, 20:52

try mouse wheel for DG locking :)
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lonewulf47
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Re: A few oddities....

Post by lonewulf47 » 23 Nov 2008, 23:26

Alex wrote:try mouse wheel for DG locking :)
Hmm, not sure what you want to tell me. Look I tried every trick, mouse wheel, doubleclick, (right click not working) and I didn't get any consistent reaction of the DG besides one time, where the DG locked up completely and was not reacting anymore. Not even possible to reset and finally locked up the whole FSX. I read the manual forward and backwards, didn't find any hint even in the 'Aerobatic' section. And now you just tell me to 'try the mouse wheel for DG locking'. What is this referring to? What do you want me to do with the mouse wheel? Where is the reference for any such action? Are there special setups? Are there some secret spots that only insiders know about? I just can't get the DG locked and it therefore starts spinning after each aerobatic manoeuvre. What could be the reason, that on my system the DG locking is obviously not working? (Although nowhere referenced ...)

I would be quite happy if somebody could enlighten me - at least in that respect..... :grin:

Oskar

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Alex
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Re: A few oddities....

Post by Alex » 24 Nov 2008, 02:15

Sorry for such a brief reply...
My poor English and lack of time don't allow me to write long messages.

Just middle click (click with mouse wheel) on DG Calibration knob.
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lonewulf47
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Re: A few oddities....

Post by lonewulf47 » 24 Nov 2008, 15:10

Thank you Alex :grin:

Now of course I understand what you mean and I also understand why it doesn't work on my system. Maybe as a hint: developers should not use any default functions of acessories as these default functions will often be replaced by customized applications. I e.g. use the doubleclick assigned to the wheel mouse which of course disables the standard function of the wheel press. I have come across this on other occasions and I feel that developers should stick to the commonly used standard functions like left click, right click and doubleclick. Furthermore there are quite sophisticated pointing devices on the market that have even completely differnt default assignments as is the case with my Logitech MX Revolution. Maybe many members of this forum - most probably already well familiar with the FS9 dvelopment - are aware of any special functions within this aircraft but as a newcomer to this forum and aircraft I do not and therefore feel a bit stupid if there are functions which are not referenced in the handbook. Unlike many simmers I always read the handbook first :grin: although I might add that I'm not an inexperienced former RL pilot with 16'000+ flying hours, of which are about 3000 in GA aircraft. So maybe you also see why I'm a bit picky when it comes to oddities within the behaviour of an aircraft.

Btw my records show that my first flight on Saab 91D Safir HB-DBL was on November 12th, 1980 at LSZB Bern Airport when this aircraft - as correctly stated in the manual - belonged to the Swiss Federal Air Office. Also later I had a few opportunities to fly this lovely aircaft which was already then equipped with the unique 3-bladed Hoffmann propeller.

Oskar

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Kofi
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Re: A few oddities....

Post by Kofi » 25 Nov 2008, 05:27

lonewulf47 wrote: Maybe as a hint: developers should not use any default functions of acessories as these default functions will often be replaced by customized applications. IOskar
I have to respectfully disagree.
If you don't develop for default, then you have absolutely no baseline or "control settings"...

lonewulf47
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Re: A few oddities....

Post by lonewulf47 » 25 Nov 2008, 13:36

@Kofi:
Now before starting a flaming war I nevertheless have to disagree to your 'disagreement' :grin: Maybe I didn't express myself clear enough. Look I'm using the Logitech MX Revolution mouse and NONE of it's default functions (and there are a lot) let's me engage the caging lock of the DG. Would it have been programmed to use the basic functions of EVERY mouse action, which are left click, right click or doubleclick I'm sure I could access it. Thant's what I mean when I urge not to use 'default functions of accessories'. I can't believe that I have to consider it as my personal fault to use a modern pointing device and thus not being able to achieve a vital setting on the aircraft. :wink:

And again I have to point to the fact that this function (among others) ist NOT documented in the manual. How do I open the cowling and other openings besides the main door? I'm sure everybody in this forum knows as this has been discussed or is regarded as common knowledge from the FS9 variant. But again this is NOT documented in the manual and I didn't use the FS9 variant.

So again, I'm not intending to start a flaming war about that but as I regard myself a quite experienced simmer I surely know what I'm talking about and I would simply like to have the possibility to use ALL options on this aircraft.

Oskar

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Re: A few oddities....

Post by Voyager30 » 25 Nov 2008, 21:16

Hi Lonewolf47
How do I open the cowling and other openings besides the main door?
This is achived by:
Shift+E+2 - Front passenger door
Shift+E+3 - Rear passenger door
Shift+E+4 - Engine cowling

Other functions that is on this bird:
Curtains in roof - Scroll wheel on mouse
Map light - left click on bar in roof
GPS - left click on glove box in front of passenger.
Checklist - left click on checklist at "pilots left knee"
Airvents - left click on small knobs top instrument panel

Hope that this clears out a bit of your questions - and you are always welcome to ask in this forum - I don't take any offense that whats forums is about

Regards

//Gerth
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Andrey
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Re: A few oddities....

Post by Andrey » 26 Nov 2008, 03:58

Will add a bit

- Ctrl+shift+0 - hide\show gauge glass
- Ctrl+shift+1 - hide\show pilot curtain
- Ctrl+shift+2 - hide\show passanger curtain

Andrey
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lonewulf47
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Re: A few oddities....

Post by lonewulf47 » 29 Nov 2008, 21:14

Andrey wrote:Will add a bit

- Ctrl+shift+0 - hide\show gauge glass
- Ctrl+shift+1 - hide\show pilot curtain
- Ctrl+shift+2 - hide\show passanger curtain

Andrey
Thank you guys. Now I got some more useful information. As I understand the above mentioned Ctrl+Shift+0 should take away the reflections from the gauge glasses, hence the reference to 'hide/show gauge glass'. However there's no reaction on my gauges. Maybe another hint? :wink:

Oskar

snave
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Re: A few oddities....

Post by snave » 30 Nov 2008, 03:53

Well, how about supplying your system specs? the problem with reflection may be a reflection on your computer, not the aircraft... :wink:

BTW, reading through an earlier reply I see you were advised to press `B` to align the DG. That should be press AND HOLD the `D` key until the DG aligns. You cannot overcorrect so as part of the post start checklist just press and hold the button for a few seconds, while watching for T's & P's to rise. By default `B` resets the pressure on the altimeter. But of course you can change these keypad functions to whatever suits you best.

As for the mouse function, well that's what a mouse is - a multi-purpose, general purpose interactive device. No one mouse or function will satisfy everyone - and the choice and installation of not only your hardware, but the software to support it, the games you install and the methodologies you use to control those games will all impact on the suitability of a particular key combo for the individual user.
There is not now, and never will be, any implied or agreed consensus by aftermarket developers to stick to any rigid guidelines. Many of these functions are `outside the box` and not coded in the original simulation (The DG in the Safir is a perfect case in point), so it really is a matter of just getting used to it, same as you would get used to `down for on` switchgear in one plane, and `up for on` in the next. Likewise in the sim world it can be left click for clockwise, left click for counter-clockwise, scroll up for left, scroll down for left, right click can be a reverse of left click or a separate function. And that's just the mouse - a mouse with two buttons and a scroll wheel, other mice with far more sophisticated functions also exist...
Simon Evans

toby23
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Re: A few oddities....

Post by toby23 » 03 Dec 2008, 21:27

found at http://www.canit.se/~griffon/aviation/text/50safir.html

Saab 91A
Span 10.60 m
Length 7.85 m
Height 2.20 m
Wing area 13.60 m2
Max altitude 4600 m
Range 940 km
Take off run 180 m
Empty weight 580 kg
Max weight 995 kg
Engine 147 hp Gipsy Major X
Max speed 265 km/h
Cruise speed 235 km/h

Saab 91B
Empty weight 710 kg
Max weight 1200 kg
Engine 190 hp Lycoming O-435-A
Max speed 275 km/h


please don't reduce the power in the B model... it's great!

Yxin
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Re: A few oddities....

Post by Yxin » 10 Mar 2009, 14:56

Hi. Feeling kinda stupid now, but cant get caging the DG to work. Clicking middle mouse (or anything else) wont cage it.
Middle mouse is not assigned to anything in fsx. What should be assigned to what, in order to make this work?


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Bjørn Bergum

Yxin
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Re: A few oddities....

Post by Yxin » 13 Mar 2009, 19:36

Anybody? :)

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Alex
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Re: A few oddities....

Post by Alex » 15 Mar 2009, 01:49

Hi,

DG lock is assigned on Mouse Wheel single click on DG Calibration Knob.
If it doesn't work check for other progams which take mouse wheel control.
Alex Petrochenko
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